Što je to Progressive?

Za stovatelje progresive, o progressive metal bendovima..

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Što je to Progressive?

Postby niguevara » Sun May 20, 2007 14:58

Malo sam se zamislio nad ovim pitanjem kada sam u nizu interviewa pročitao odbojnost prema ovom žanru... E,sad, stvar je da su intervjuirani ljudi bili 2 autora koja najviše cijenim: Daniel GildenLOVE, i Steven Wilson. Opet kažem,to su u više navrata ponovili. Mislim, svatko ima svoju teoriju o etiketiranju itd. Za nekoga DT predstavlja nešto svemirsko,meni je to tehnički progressive metal! Symphony X i niz ostalih bandova također. To šta je DT dijelom definirao taj žanr je druga stvar...Nemojmo se zavaravati da su ga oni izmislili,Watchtower je prije njih svirao tehničku verziju proga,al dobro,ovdje se
ne radi o DT-u. Uglavnom, navelo me na razmišljanje zašto ta 2 autora izbjegavaju etiketu progressive. Ne izbjegavaju etiketiranje (Daniel voli za pain reći da je to Alternative metal) već samo tu odredjenu etiketu. Progressive bi trebao biti upravo to..progresivan. Mislim da se tokom vremena izgubila bit značenja progressive: sada je progressive sve šta ima duge pjesme,neka bjesna sola itd. Bez obzira na to šta su melodije,rifovi,solaže prožvakane miljun puta prije toga. Pink Floydi su u to vrijeme bili progressive,sada su pop-rock djedice...tako razmišljaju "true" progeri! Meni je upravo suprotno: Floydi su izvorna progresiva! Probili su granice razmišljanja,plivali uzvodno kad su pisali pjesme...To je za mene definicija proga... bez obzira imao album jedan ili 15 sola,trajale pjesme 3 ili 33 minute. Tom logikom je Pain of Salvation (trenutno) pravi progressive band. Kažem trenutno jer sam se opekao na primjeru DT-a. Nadam se da se to Danielu i momcima neće dogoditi (imamo razloga vjerovati)...Vjeru u to mi uljeva način na koji Daniel govori:

"You’ve been accused of being too intellectual about your song-making and concepts etc. Don't you fear that you'll lose some listeners along the way or your message won't be delivered fully? Someone suggested to me that one almost must have a Ph.D in theology to fully grasp the meaning of BE.
Daniel:
No, you have to have a functioning brain, that's all. Ph.D is nothing, it's just a paper. So no I don't care about that [laughs]. I see what you mean, but no, it's nothing that bothers me. For every album you make there are always people that thought, you know, "you should have done this or that", or "hey, why didn't you make another One Hour By The Concrete Lake" or whatever their own favourite album is. And if you start thinking like that, I think that's when you're on dangerous territory, when it comes to creative process. I think you should always, I said this too, but fear is very good. Fear is something that is really important if you're hunted down by a wolf or a pack of bandits. But fear is not the best creative force, fear doesn't make a good songwriter and fear does not make a good producer or anything, so I try to leave Mr. Fear out of basically everything that has to do with anything creative.

Do you use a special formula when making an album? How do you go about making one, does it just flow naturally?
Daniel:
It just flows naturally. It depends on the album. I usually say that as long as you're making music and you're using yourself, like, as long as you're putting yourself into your music, the music will change as long as you're changing. And another way of constantly redefining your relationship to music, I think, is also to change the procedure in which the music is being created. And that happened definitely for the last albums, since we have had so different premises for every different album. But one thing that is always the same, I think… I mean, I can only speak for myself as a composer, but when music comes to me, I live with it for a while, I twist and turn it and sometimes it survives into something that will actually be on an album or at some sort being continued and being finished at some point. Most of it is just passing by. After that it's all up to your own filter. I try to find the perfect form for the music. Somewhere, maybe that's wrong, but somewhere I just have the feeling that every song, every idea, every embryo of a song has a perfect place, a perfect form. And I think that the higher your musical ceiling is, the bigger is the chance that that specific song will reach its ultimate form. I think that every time you fail in finding the ultimate form for musical idea, you have abused the song idea. You have done something to it that was not intended to be. And I think that's what, in my opinion, makes some of the great bands and artists so great. Like every time I listen to The Beatles I can hear so many songs that found their ultimate form. And sometimes when you listen to other music, you can just feel that this was not the soul of the song, it ended up in a wrong way, because someone was trying to reshape it into something that would fit themselves or fit their own form as a band or as an artist. And I try to avoid that as much as possible."

A i naravno,činjenica da je čovjek odbio natući love na USA touru zbog svog vjerovanja u ljudsko dostojanstvo etc,etc.
Ups,going off topic here! Sorry ljudi,dosta Paina....

Uglavnom,mislim da je progressive izgubilo na značenju,da se sve i svašta stavlja u tu košaru,i sasvim mi je razumljivo da oni to odbijaju... Jer ako u istoj rečenici,u istom kontekstu spomenemo i nazovemo Pain of Salvation,Dream Theater,Symphony X,Porcupine Tree,Opeth itd. progressive metalom ,dobijemo dojam da je to sve tu negdje... A to je velika neistina (ma koji god vi band preferirali) i užasno banaliziranje...Zato skroz podržavam D.Gildenlowa i S. Wilsona.
"Turning mirrors upside down
Won't make dust fall off the ground
Hiding wounds won't ease the pain
Sleep won't make you whole again
Change the inside..."
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Re: Što je to Progressive?

Postby Miracle » Sun May 20, 2007 16:14

niguevara wrote:"...I just have the feeling that every song, every idea, every embryo of a song has a perfect place, a perfect form. And I think that the higher your musical ceiling is, the bigger is the chance that that specific song will reach its ultimate form. I think that every time you fail in finding the ultimate form for musical idea, you have abused the song idea. You have done something to it that was not intended to be. And I think that's what, in my opinion, makes some of the great bands and artists so great. Like every time I listen to The Beatles I can hear so many songs that found their ultimate form. And sometimes when you listen to other music, you can just feel that this was not the soul of the song, it ended up in a wrong way, because someone was trying to reshape it into something that would fit themselves or fit their own form as a band or as an artist. And I try to avoid that as much as possible."

uuuuuu kako mi ovo zvoni na neke stvari koje san nedavno čua
Life seems too small when Death takes its toll
I need something to blame for this pain
I try, I fail, I fall, like anyone you know
I break, I bleed, like anyone you know

2B V -2B = ?
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Postby Black water » Sun May 20, 2007 16:33

Ovo je u svakom slučaju istina. Već sam prije razmatrao i čitao o definicijama proga, kao i o razlici atributa progressive i avantgarde. Pa koliko sam shvatio, dijelom se avangarda i progresiva preklapaju, pošto obje nastoje izbjeći klišeje i unositi friške ideje u glazbu. Međutim, progressive je karakterističan po tome što više koristi složene strukture pjesama, nepravilne ritmove, tehničku potkovanost glazbenika i sl. dok avangarda u potpunosti napušta koncepte poznatih pravila što skladanja, što aranžiranja. što sviranja. Najveća razlika koja se pritom događa je to što je avangarda u sebi poput otvorenog svemira, tj. uopće nema granica, ni pravila, pa ni revolucija. Avangarda zato ima i mali broj poklonika, te prilično statičan razvoj (ne u kreativnom, već u metamorfičkom smislu), dok s druge strane progresiva na početku neke od svojih razvojnih faza izaziva pravu revoluciju u okolini da bi nakon pojave gomile bendova koji nastoje kopirati pionire spomenute faze to prestao biti prog u prvotnom smislu. Dakle, značenje pridjeva progressive mijenja se kroz vrijeme; mnogi ''true progeri'' su osjetljivi i neprilagodljivi tim promjenama te im je teško prihvatiti ekspanziju pojma ''prog'' na neke druge bendove i karakteristike (netko je u nekom drugom topicu popizdio na spomen grupe Muse kao progressive grupe; ona to zasigurno nije u onom smislu u kojem se recimo Camel ili Focus u sedamdesetima označavao kao prog; ali je nedvojbeno progressive u današnjem, proširenom smislu (na prog archivesima mislim da je grupirana kao progressive alternative metal ili nu metal). Razvoj pojma se, međutim, mora prihvatiti.

Nakon stvaranja prezasićenosti scene bendovima tzv. prog usmjerenja, a koji zapravo počinju kopirati jedni druge, potrebna je revolucija u glazbi kako bi se ''izbrisalo'' stara pravila i stvorilo nova. Te se faze stalno ponavljaju, i ponavljaju... Ne računajući brojne podfaze, do danas su se dogodile 2 glavne faze: prva je počela sredinom 60-ih, doživjela vrhunac sredinom 70-ih i pad s pojavom punka (premda je aktivna još i danas), a druga je otpočela sredinom osamdesetih pojavom Queensrychea i DT-a te traje još danas. Nakon što se pojavi dovoljno copycat bendova i iscrpi se dovoljan broj ideja, opeth će se pojaviti neko nov ko će revolucionarizirati žanr i dati mu novo značenje. I opeth će fanovi sadašnjeg proga tvrditi da ta nova, treća faza nije prog...
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Postby Enigma » Sun May 20, 2007 18:13

ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat
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Postby Sepulman8 » Sun May 20, 2007 18:27

Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.
Pablo Francisco wrote:...he is a monster singer,he sounds like a creature...

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Postby zli_barba » Sun May 20, 2007 18:39

Sepulman8 wrote:
Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.


pa čovjek ko svaki progresivac pokušava unijet neravnotežu u pravilan topic :lol:
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Postby Roswell_47 » Sun May 20, 2007 18:49

Sepulman8 wrote:
Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.


Jebo vas obojicu...majmuni jedni... :lol: :lol:

samo se podjebajete.... :lol: :lol:
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Postby TASTATUR » Sun May 20, 2007 18:51

Malo fulano... hehe
Hey y'all, snippity diggity!
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Postby zli_barba » Sun May 20, 2007 19:00

Roswell_47 wrote:
Sepulman8 wrote:
Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.


Jebo vas obojicu...majmuni jedni... :lol: :lol:

samo se podjebajete.... :lol: :lol:


imenjače, ti si u krivom podforumu :lol:
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Postby Enigma » Sun May 20, 2007 19:00

Sepulman8 wrote:
da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.


a ovo si ti naučio novu riječ pa si se doša falit na cmar-net?
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Postby Roswell_47 » Sun May 20, 2007 19:15

zli_barba wrote:
Roswell_47 wrote:
Sepulman8 wrote:
Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.


Jebo vas obojicu...majmuni jedni... :lol: :lol:

samo se podjebajete.... :lol: :lol:


imenjače, ti si u krivom podforumu :lol:


Pošto se zadnjih godinu ipo EG i PoS zadnjih po godine svakodnevno vrte u mojim ušima, dozvoljavam si ulazak u ovaj podforum, u nadi da ću nać nešto slično...al još neide :lol:
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Postby Black water » Sun May 20, 2007 19:27

Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat



Prvo nauči odgovarat na postove. Drugo, nauči da u Progressive podforumu moraš biti ekstra pristojan jer su tu ljudi s dobrim ukusom za glazbu :D
Treće, argumentiraj.
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Postby AOR_Crazy » Sun May 20, 2007 19:38

Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


Ja već izbacio ručak čitajući...
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Postby niguevara » Sun May 20, 2007 20:00

ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


Ti si svoje reka već odavno... I svi znaju da si TI u pravu!
Kako sa samo usudim nešto napisat?!
Ti si bog! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
"Turning mirrors upside down
Won't make dust fall off the ground
Hiding wounds won't ease the pain
Sleep won't make you whole again
Change the inside..."
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Postby Sepulman8 » Sun May 20, 2007 21:59

Roswell_47 wrote:
Sepulman8 wrote:
Enigma wrote:ajme kako seru. obojica

vratit ću se za 5 minuti, iden rigat


da enigma nije odgovorija na ovi topic,svit bi implodira.


Jebo vas obojicu...majmuni jedni... :lol: :lol:

samo se podjebajete.... :lol: :lol:


nemoš ti to skužit ti nisi iz dalmacije :D :lol: :klap:
Pablo Francisco wrote:...he is a monster singer,he sounds like a creature...

8)
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